The Lesser of Evils...

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The Lesser of Evils...

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:27 AM

Fascinating discussion here, and quite possibly one of the longest blog post titles I've ever seen:

Broken Toys: See you in Ultima Online… no, Shadowbane… uh, DAOC… hey, SWG… wait, Horizons…. Vanguard?… Darkfall! YEAH! Totally see you in Darkfall, newb!

In which Scott picks over this gem of an opinion piece at Darkfall Warcry. Now I don't really know a lot about Darkfall, which is perhaps an error on my part, but I can't quite remember the last time I was called a plebian, mouth-breather and moron all in the same article! Well, not me personally, but according to Redmorgan, there are two types of gamer. When you've been killed (Grrr!), looted (Hel-lo?) and had your city burnt to the ground (wait...what?), there are those of us who will bounce right back up from the ashes and build a new city (who for the sake of brevity, I shall call 'Masochists'), and The Rest Of Us.

It's a curious piece really, and clearly one written with much bitterness at the state of modern MMO gaming. Presumably, Darkfall is to be a different kind of thing where skill will rule all. Most of all though, it seems to me to be not so much an analysis of marketing and financial constraints on the nature of MMO gaming (i.e. Customers will continue to pay for an experience that isn't broadly negative most of the time, and Games Cost Money To Make and Run), and more in the nature of a rallying call to any who would play Darkfall.

The basic message seems to be that Darkfall is going to be hard, and often painful, but that it's our duty to stick with it, through gank and high water, and be grateful and gracious when our betters kill us, loot us and burn down our cities. It'll probably build Moral Fiber or somesuch. Heaven forfend we be deemed plebians or mouth-breathers for not sucking it up and knuckling down!

It does all sound somewhat familiar, and the most insightful response to it all can be found quite far down Scott's comments; a very long and detailed post-mortem of Shadowbane, posted by 'Wanderer', clearly someone who has actually been there and seen it firsthand, and come away with all manner of fascinating observations. He notes that PvP itself wasn't the cause of Shaowbane's troubles, but that these days, players have more choice and aren't required to be prey if they want to play in MMO at all. Hopefully there are lessons in there that the majority of game designers - the ones that have let go of 'Pre Trammel UO' anyway - find self-evident and have taken on board.

The fundamental crux of it all, I suppose, is what one expects for their $15 a month. A hard fought battle and a slim chance of being the hero, accompanied by the far greater likelihood of just being killed, looted and razed on a frequent basis, or a less demanding experience in which everyone gets to win to some degree, or at the very least, log off contented and feeling that they haven't just wasted three hours of their life for no perceived gain.

I suspect it's not even as stark and abstract as that for most people, which perhaps RedMorgan misses in his obvious enthusiasm for Darkfall's eventual release. Perhaps it's just that most MMO players these days go into their chosen title, looking for nothing more than an entertaining game to play, with friends, and a momentary escape to be had, for a few hours a night, between arriving home from a mundane and souless job, cooking dinner, putting kids to bed, doing homework, and then staggering to bed exhausted in perparation for another day in the aforementioned mundane and souless job. If that makes us mouth-breathers, it's only because exhausted people tend to require more air than the nasal passages alone can provide.

For most of us, being patronised a little bit, is probably okay. We like to feel special, and succeed. I hope Darkfall learns lessons from UO and Shadowbane, and does well. Everyone deserves to find the kind of fun they're looking for. I'm just relieved to live in an MMO age, where that fun doesn't have to come at the expense of my own anymore. Think I might sit this one out, if it's all the same with you folks.

Edit: This is a pretty good read too - from way back in 2004:

Broken Toys: The Unbearable Darkness Of Ultima Online

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# re: The Lesser of Evils...

Eve is just about as harsh as it gets and works, but even that has to have easy pve content and grinding in order to finance the harshness. I get the feeling they're going to grab a smallish player base when they launch and if it's sustainable for their costs then they'll declare it a success. They're going to need to pull players from the other "harsh" games, but when you've invested that much in getting anywhere in a game you're much less likely to leave than a more carebear game.

The cynic in me can't help feeling that the point for that original post was just to get people talking about the game and build some hype. I certainly hadn't heard about it before, but now that I've been told it's not a game I would like I'll be sure to not play. 7/24/2007 11:52 AM | Jon

re: The Lesser of Evils...

What I that one thing that both you and the Darkfall fanboi are missing is the difference between solo and group PvP.

You're mostly a solo player so you probably don't have much interest in the group stuff and I'm not much interested in state of nature PvP with a bunch of disorganized gank squads wandering around.

What I like about open PvP is what it does to guilds. There's nothing that encourages the forming of social bonds like getting killed repeatedly if you don't have friends to watch you back.

For me at least PvE games is the social equivalent of hanging out in a bar shooting darts and PvP is more like being holed up in boarded up bar with a couple friends with a horde of brain-eating zombies pounding at the barricades. One gets the adrenaline pumping a hell of a lot more and makes you bond with your friend in a much more meaningful way. Of course having zombies pounding at the door 24/7 gets a bit trying but the difference between how groups function in PvE vs. PvP games is like night and day and I like having my guild be what I base my gameplay around and be full of people I rely on 100% rather than a place I can brag about my latest *ding* to.

Of course you're probably looking for something else... 7/24/2007 12:27 PM | Daztur

# re: The Lesser of Evils...

Fair comment, I am a bit of a carebear, with solo tendencies. Mind you I do have fond memories of the last Corp War in EVE, (EVE Online category link on the sidebar) which might be a similar kind of feeling.

Mostly for me, it's about the *choice*, rather than the fact that PvP exists at all. Like you say, the zombie assault would get a bit tiring 24/7, but I don't mind a little light zombie action on occassion.

However, the implication that anyone who might also have this philosophy is some kind of mindless pellet-munching drone with no desires or goals or dreams of their own - the 'mouth breather' of the article - strikes me as arrogant and short-sighted, frankly, and pretty much encapsulates what it is about the more 'Hardcore' game that leaves me cold.

Still, they don't want me there anyway, so everyone wins in the end :) 7/24/2007 12:38 PM | Van Hemlock

# re: The Lesser of Evils...

As ever, I reckon His Izzardness has it right. You can be proud of what you do/whatever game you happen to like on its own merits, or you can just dismiss everyone else, and Option B is usually easier. "Anyone who doesn't like Darkfall smells and lives in a ditch, ahhhhh!" 7/24/2007 12:58 PM | Zoso

# re: The Lesser of Evils...

The one thing that I think articles on how horrid "easy" games are miss is the fact that the entire idea of a game is that it should be fun. I'm not saying a game needs to be easy in order to be fun--far from it. But different people have different ideas of what makes something fun. To treat someone with condescension or scorn because they don't agree with your idea of what's fun in a game is pretty silly, IMO. Just shrug and suggest you both play different games. If enough folks want a hard game that somehow "proves" they have some kind of skill, then there'll be a market for it. That doesn't have to have any implications for whether other games are somehow good or bad by comparison---they're just aimed at a different type of gamer. 7/24/2007 3:08 PM | Heather

re: The Lesser of Evils...

"I am a bit of a carebear, with solo tendencies"
Well I'm not claiming to be hardcore or anything, my PvP K:D ratio is rather pathetic...
I'm basically a casual player who I can only be bothered to play MMORPGs if I have a large and supportive group.

"Mind you I do have fond memories of the last Corp War in EVE, (EVE Online category link on the sidebar) which might be a similar kind of feeling."
Ya, probably the same sort of thing but slightly less paranoia-inducing than free for all PvP.

"Mostly for me, it's about the *choice*, rather than the fact that PvP exists at all. Like you say, the zombie assault would get a bit tiring 24/7, but I don't mind a little light zombie action on occassion."
Right, but if you can choose to opt-out of having other players interact with you in a manner that you don't like then other players can opt-out of having me interact with them in a manner that they don't like. For some people that's a good trade off, for me its not.

What I'd like ideally is player-run kingdoms (with perhaps some barbaric fringe areas) in which if you're in the kingdom's heartland you're save from most everything except for full-scale invasions but if you're on the frontiers all bets are off. Sort of like Eve I guess but more dynamic and with the defenders having a bigger bonus. 7/25/2007 5:16 AM | Daztur

re: The Lesser of Evils...

Man, everyone has been getting up in arms with the mouth-breather comment.

I'm not sure what exactly seems to offend people about gamers who still want a challenge when they play. MMORPGs is the only genre that seems to have this culture of easy gameplay.

But anyways, to each their own! If you prefer to play WoW and it's worth the money, you're more than welcome to it. You just have to acknowledge that there is a growing number of gamers who long for an MMO with consequences. 7/25/2007 11:37 PM | Red Morgan

# re: The Lesser of Evils...

When I read Red Morgan's article, what I came away with more than anything else was the desire of many gamers for a more action-oriented MMO. There are MMO gamers who want more of an RPG experience and there are those who want more of an FPS experience.

The two aren't mutually exclusive of course (personally, i love action RPGs). But there are gamers who lean heavily toward one end or the other, and right now the two groups are kinda stuck together in the same MMOs. Darkfall's an opportunity for the more FPS-oriented crowd.

Like in most debates, folks from the opposing sides generally aren't in the habit of viewing things from the other's perspective. I didn't think the article was particularly harsh, really... it's just written by a Darkfall fan for Darkfall fans. It's basically the flip-side of the coin where roleplay-oriented gamers make fun of "Bnet kiddies".

I'm not much into PvP (unless it's with real-life friends sitting in the same room), but I'm looking forward to Darkfall as a viable deviation from stagnant MMO models. 7/26/2007 5:16 AM | Aaron

# re: The Lesser of Evils...

@RedMorgan

I suspect the mouth-breather bit might have distracted a lot of people, including myself, away from the main point you're making a bit, yes, and I do acknowledge that different folks want different things from their games.

Might just be paranoia on my own part - perhaps I just need to relax and not automatically assume that anyone who wants a difficult game necessarily thinks that I am somehow inferior for not also want the same for myself.

Still, one good side to all this - I'm a lot more curious about what Darkfall actually *is* than I was before your article, as are a lot of the other folks who reacted so strongly to your piece, I suspect. Can't say I'll like it, but definitely need to find out more about it now! 7/26/2007 10:36 AM | Van Hemlock

re: The Lesser of Evils...

@Van Hemlock

Let me clarify that I don't think any less of you or any other gamer than prefers a different style of gameplay. I wish everyone the best of luck on finding whatever is most fun for them. That is what games are for afterall.

My issue was that in certain games, someone who is barely conscious is told that they're just as heroic as a skilled and clever gamer. I find that insulting, and unfortunately every MMO that comes out is using that as a model... leaving people like me with nowhere to go.

The purpose of my article was to rally like-minded individuals to the only game that I see as providing us with what we find fun. Even if I wasn't a competitive person, I would thoroughly enjoy crafting in a world that can sometimes be quite dangerous. I crave a degree of realism and human drama I suppose.

Anyways, best regards! 7/26/2007 5:28 PM | Red Morgan

re: The Lesser of Evils...

Well, despite the comment about 'growing numbers of gamers', I think the evidence shows the opposite to be true. Games for casual gamers have (overall) sales and player numbers that crush 'hardcore' games.

And in the 'professional' pay to play MMO category, WoW is still the 800 pound gorilla, and growing. And as for easy, there are people who complain that the 'end game' raiding component of WoW is too hard.

Does that mean that everyone should enjoy WoW? No, of course not. WoW found the right formula to catch a lot of attention, but its not perfect, and its not everyone's cup of tea.

Does that mean there isn't a market for 'hard core' games? Again, of course not. There are a significant number of hardcore gamers out there looking for that game.

Will that be Darkfall? Meh, who knows.

Just don't kid yourself on which group is more numerous. And don't think you are superior simply because you are in one category or another.

Personally I think 'all ganking, all the time' has nothing to do with skill as from my experience the majority of 'hardcore PvPers' in MMOs are always looking for lowbies to gank, or where they have a significant numerical advantage, or their target is already weak. They tend to run if presented a fair fight, and I've seen more than one log after the tables were turned on them.

So much for looking for a contest of skill. These guys just want the easy kills, and like to know that they are doing it to other human beings, and REALLY enjoy it if they know they are frustrating someone.

Seems more like the virtual equivilant of schoolyard bullies.

To me, PvP in an MMO is a joke. Its not about skill, its about ego masturbation. You want a real PvP fight, play a RTS or FPS online. In those its a fairly straight up and balanced fight, it just comes down to how well you can play. You don't get to have more players than the other side, you don't get to be higher level, and you don't get to have better gear.

Oh, and if you don't mean to insult people who aren't into the same type of game as you, the easiest way is to simply not insult them. If you want to talk about a hardcore game, fine, do so. But don't as a matter of course insult the people that aren't into the same things as you.

Don't forget - as a matter of perspective - to the rest of the world, all of us gamers are just a bunch of geeks with no lives, and they outnumber us by a significant margin.
7/27/2007 12:37 AM | Eric

Van Hemlock